counting rhythms in shuffle grooves
Hi David,
Apologies for coming back to you so quickly after my last question, but I have a question the answer to which I've never seen or heard in years of reading shuffle-rhythm standard notation transcripts (which, aside from yours, have been for, variously, guitar, bass and keyboards). I've not seen this addressed by even great jazz educators such as Jerry Coker and Jamey Aebersold, but I might just have missed where they addressed it.
This might be a bit technical and I further apologise to anyone who has stumbled on this post and doesn't read standard notation and probably, with some justification, believes it just isn't anything to do with classic blues harmonica - a perspective that I partly agree with - but there are standard notation transcripts on this site (lots and lots of them!) so I'm going to ask anyway as you might just be the person who can answer this for me.
The segment of a transcript I'm going to refer to is the first four measures (plus pickup) of Blues for Big Nate from your excellent Jerry Portnoy Artist Study (Level 4).
The first part of the question is posed right there in the pick up! But to take a step back. As we know, by convention in standard notation, shuffle rhythms (when not notation in compound time) are read at the quarter-note level as dotted quarter notes subdivided into triplets and where there are two eighth notes in one quarter note beat these are played (roughly) as a quarter note followed by an eighth note.
So far so good, but the issue then becomes how to count that pickup in the first measure - or leading to the first measure if that's how you interpret it? In other words, is there a way to actually count at the sixteenth and thirty-second note levels in a shuffle groove? Technically, the pickup is written as three-quarters of plus a quarter of an eighth note (three thirty-second notes followed by one thirty-second note) followed by an eighth note, but how to actually count this when the eighth note in question (being subdivided) is the first pulse of a shuffle rhythm? Can you actually count one-uh-and-a (or whatever convention you use) within what is essentially a two-thirds beat?
In fact, although exacerbated at the thirty-second-note level, the question arises at the pure sixteenth-note level as in the first part of the phrase which spans measures four and five of the transcript (ignoring the pickup measure). Here we have four sixteenth notes. But how to count them? In your lesson you counted them as shuffle sixteenths (you may wish to correct me on this), but if that is the case we've just ignored the underlying eighth-note shuffle pulse (which does not break down symmetrically into two subdivided beats) and superimposed a shuffle pulse at the sixteenth-note level.
I suspect the answer might just be you do it by feeling, but I'd like to know if I'm missing something and whether these rhythms can actually be counted and, if so, how.
Again, I know this might sound like over over-thinking, but it does become a real practical concern when asked to read shuffle rhythms from standard notation transcripts without (as here) the benefit of accompanying audio and a world-class tutor!
I realise I've just put myself (probably irredeemably) squarely in the music-geek pigeon hole, but I am very much looking forward to your comments!
Peter
Hello Peter.
Let me start, for those that read this post as well, with a definition of swing.
The most common definition of swing is where we have two 8th notes, a downbeat and an upbeat, played as triplets, with the first two triplets tied together. The first note thus becomes 2/3 of a beat, and the second note becomes 1/3 of a beat. The effect becomes all downbeats are longer in time, and upbeat notes are slightly later and shorter in time.
This is a good reference point, and is pretty accurate.
With this said, swing is a range. Swing can also be played with the upbeat eighth note as far out as the last 16th of the beat. This being notated as dotted quarter for the downbeat and 16th for the upbeat. In most cases it doesn’t go that far… I actually can’t think of an example (“Frosty” by Albert Collins comes close)… but there are swings that go closer to that. So, it’s important to understand that swing rhythm is not mathematical, but a feeling somewhere between triplets and sixteenths.
To be continued… time to teach.
Okay, I’m back...
The same swinging of eighth notes can work at the 16th note level… you’re just playing two swinging pairs per beat instead of one.
As for the pickup to Blues for Big Nate, treat the 1 and 3+ as the standard swing eighths (2/3 + 1/3) and fit that 2+ very quickly before the 3+. Again keep in mind that swing is ultimately a feel thing, and not so mathematical, so saying "fit that 2+ very quickly, right before the 3+” is the right way to think about. Use the notation as a reference and use the provided MP3 as the ultimate reference… it’s what you (and I as the transcription artist) are trying to copy.
Hi David,
Thanks for your reply. I understand and agree with what you've written. And your directions on how to play the sixteenth note in the lesson were very clear and helpful.
I am just going to say a little more on my main point though because, as I say, it's something that I haven't ever seen properly addressed and it may be that I'm missing something obvious.
I know I'm wandering off a little from the way you use transcripts on this site, and ultimately the audio is king. But the fact remains that fitting shuffle rhythms within standard notation is a superimpositon on a device that was never intended to do this job in this way and it does have problems. And I just wanted to hear what you thought of what I consider to be the main one, which is the proper interpretation of a quarter note broken down into four sixteenths notes in a shuffle groove transcribed in a 4/4 time signature.
It is not usual, as in Blues for Big Nate, to interpret these sixteenths as swing sixteenths if the eighths are swinging. Of course a musician - Jerry Portnoy in this case - can play what he wants and the particular lick using swing sixteenths sounds great so enough said on that. But I've never seen an overall pulse described as swing eighths and swing sixteenths. From what I've seen it's always one or the other. To have both would mean that there were cross rhythms built into the whole piece of music at the eighth/sixteenth note level - definitely not what you'd expect in blues, or even, I'd say, jazz.
So I think my question boils down to this: in a shuffle groove when you come across a quarter note comprising four sixteenth notes (without any additional phrasing information) where does the third sixteenth note lie? Does it line up with the upbeat of the actual pulse of the music (i.e. for example, on the third note of the triplet - if that is the pulse) or does it come before it?
If you've any thoughts on this particular question, I'd love to hear them.
Peter
Hello Peter. The first and third sixteenths are played straight in time (1 &) and held slightly longer than standard, and the 2nd and 4th sixteenths are played swung (slightly later in time and shorter). This is how I understand it, or would like to think of them, since I too have never seen a definition.
Hi David,
Thanks for your reply and for spending time on this.
Will do some listening.
Peter
My pleasure. Sorry I couldn't give you a more technical answer.
Hi David,
No problem at all. Really useful discussion that has opened my mind - and ears - on a subject that, as I said, I've been thinking about for a long time.
In fact, I've been workng through your lesson on the piece I used as a reference point, Blues for Big Nate, and clearly there are the swung sixteeths (with 1 and 3 landing straight as you say above) creating that cross rhythm between the licks and the overall shuffle groove.
All good and lots to think about and listen out for. (-:
Thanks again. Peter
Hi David,
My posting this question to you has actually given me what might be part of the answer. And it's to convert to compound tme, count the rhythm in compound time and then speed it up to the designated tempo. I was just thinking about how slow blues are routinely written in 12/8 and that would seem to be a clue. So the timing of the first pickup in Blues for Big Nate would work out fine in 12/8 as a dotted 16th note plus a 32nd note plus an eighth note. But that only works because there's an 8th note in the particular rhythm. It doesn't solve issues with 4/4 notated shuffle rhythm, such as how to read four 16th notes (and subdivisions thereof). Do they become straight 16ths or, as in the Blues for Big Nate example, superimposed swing 16ths or something else? But it might be a move in the right direction.
What do you think? Peter