Diatonic Octaves to Chromatic Octaves - Difference?
Hello, Winslow thank you so much in advance.
I have found a way to do the Octave while using the Diatonic by putting just the tip of my tongue pointing down slightly into the the adjacent hole to the right of the left most note in the octave.
e.g.
for the 1 4 octave, I use the 2nd hole to place my tongue. It is the left center tip of the tongue going slightly down.
My tongue has a definite U block shape or a channel and I am constantly working on a basic flat tongue, Tongue block technique, blocking the holes to the left and sounding the note to the right.
For the Chromatic, I am having issues trying to use this same process.
I am trying to play a 5 hole octave, 1 5..
Do you have any suggestions for me, if I want to use a slight variation from my success with the Diatonic.
Here is something that I believe you wrote that might help me. I am tyring to understand how I can use this with my tongue shape.
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Tip o' the tongue
When I'm tongue blocking the chrom, I use the top surface of my tongue to block the holes. The tip of my tongue touches the bottom of the mouthpiece and the inside of my lower lip, and rests on top of the ridge of my lower teeth.
When I widen my embouchure to play octaves, the tip of the tongue stays on the underside of the mouthpiece, while the lower lips and teeth pull away because of the dropped jaw and wider mouth opening.
When I narrow down to block only one hole and play the holes on either side, the tip of my tongue touches the inside of the UPPER lip, because I'm blocking the hole using the narrow "cord," a sort of front-to-back ridge that runs along the underside of my tongue.
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Will
Hey Winslow, I can make the change to the Diatonic. I can really feel my jaw opening up and blocking with a flat tongue. I like the CD cover trick. I tried the Chromatic and I was going backward a little which is to be expected.
Winslow, part of my problem is that I am not getting the tongue in a position to blow or draw at the same time a hole to the left and a hole to the right.
I know it is tongue placement with maybe the air control to have it working, inhaling and exhaling on both sides at the same time. Seems basic, but I believe that is something that I am aware that I am not doing.
Does using the underside of the tongue have any benefits in doing an octave? I thought I read this in a response and I was thrown off a little.
The sensation from having the tongue flat against the CD cover surface to a harmonica is that my tongue wants to bunch up. When it bunches up or retracts it creates the U Block. Crazy.
I understand the pitfalls of using the tongue tip.
I believe you have posted somewhere a drill that has steps that helps with the correct tongue block and the breath control on both sides of the mouth at the same time. Can you find it for me? I need to have the tongue out and the tip going down and breath on both ends.
I could be wrong. Anyhow I can feel the difference with the pressure up against the CD cover. If I relax the tongue it curves up and I form the U Block. It is interesting and I will work on it and give you more feedback.
I so happy that you got to me..
Will
I wouldn't use the underside of the tongue for wide blocks, only for very narrow ones, like doing a one-hole block in a three-hole spread.
Playing a note out of the left side of your mouth can benefit from some attention to what you're doing to play a note out of the right side - take what you observe and mirror it.
For instance, when I tongue block while playing a note out of the right side, I can feel the left edge of my tongue contacting the left corner of my mouth (where upper and lower lips meet) and also the left cheek between the teeth. Meanwhile, the right edge of the tongue is free and when I breathe I can feel air moving past the right edge as well as the top and bottom surfaces of the tongue inside the mouth.
So if you mirror that to play out of the left side, you'll have the right edge of your tongue touching the right cheek and right corner of the mouth, while the left edge is free in the breeze.
But you're talking about splits and not isolated left-side playing.
However, your splits will be more assured if you take some time to strengthen your left-corner embouchure. Try playing simple melodies using only left side. Play just single notes, no slaps, pulls, or any fancy stuff at first. The main point is to get your left corner working well.
When you go to play a split, you need both corners open. So both edge of your tongue will be out of contact with the mouth corners and the cheeks.
Here's a little prep exercise.
First try singing Maaaa-Maaa-Maaa-Maaaa.
Note that you go from a closed mouth (the M sound, with the air going through your nose) to an open mouth (the aaa sound.)
Now, start with your tongue inserted between your lips for the "M" sound. Feel the edges of your tongue touching the corners and cheeks.
When you go to the "aaa" sound, continue to hold the tip of your tongue between your lips, and open only the corners of your mouth for the "aaaa" sound. Try to open only the corners of your lips, and don't move your tongue at all. Note the change to the sensation along both edges of your tongue as they break contact with the corners and cheeks.
You might want to try this first with the right corner, then with the left corner, then with both simultaneously.
Once you get the hang of that, close your nose and stop using your voice. The effect will be a whispered "Paaaa-Paaa." Try it both inhaling and exhaling.
Once you can comfortably open and breathe through both corner openings at once, start adapting it to the harmonica. Some of the adaptations you'll need to make:
--- The tip of your tongue will have to be configured differently.
--- The width of your mouth opening will need to adapt to the number of holes you want in your mouth.
--- The size of the corner openings may also need some adjustment.
Winslow you And David are gentlemen and scholars. What a joy to have both of you available for personal harmonica development. I hope others can benefit from my situation. It is all so very sound, sorry the pun.
Both of you have gone over the tops of the hurdles that this little instrument has in store for all of us.
Credos to you, David and his crew.
I will sit down and feast on your instruction.
Thank you, Sir....
Will
Hello Winslow How Are You? I hope you are fine.
I want to give you an update with my Chromatic 5 Hole Octave training.
As I mentioned, I have a Hohner Super Deluxe 20 Harmonica. It comes with a cleaning towel. I have folded in half twice and layed it down between holes 1 and 5 to act as a block to train myself to hear and place my tongue onto the mouthpiece. I did something similar to this with duct tape on a old C Diantonic wihen I was working on 4 hole octaves.
I am working on sounding the holes on both sides of my mouth as you have suggested. This is very easy to do with the towel trick. I am then pull the towel out without moving the harmonica, similar to a Magician when he does the table cloth trick.
I am placing the harp straight into my mouth where it is touching both sides of my mouth/lips. My tongue is normally stationed where the tip of the tongue resides underneath the mouthpiece. I believe this is a good thing.
I am just trying to inhale and exhale and feel the notes 1 and 4.
I am struggling to place my tongue where it would not use my U block embouchure. I believe you and David move the Harmonica back and deep and open up your mouth in a smiling/frowning position.
I seem to try to do this, but the notes or note in the middle are sounding. I seem not to be able to find a flat area further back on the tongue to do this.
Can you do this towel trick and then move the towel down and play the 5 hole Octave?
I believe the 5 hole octave is a advanced technique. I can do the 4 hole with my tongue tip, which is what you have cautioned me not to do. I understand where you are coming from.
I can still do the CD cover trick. I can see some flatness to the tongue when I do this. I wonder why I can't do the same with the Harmonica in my mouth. I know the angles are different.
Any further suggestions. I really appreciate your dedication and help.
Will
Will -
I agree that the 5-hole split is more difficult than some of the narrower splits. It took me awhile to get solid with it, and if I don't use it I start to lose it.
How are your splits with a 4-hole spread? If those are in good shape, why not use them in your playing? In his chromatic playing, Little Walter used mostly 4-hole and 3-hole spreads for his splits, and only rarely played octaves - it was George Smith who really brought octaves (5-hole splits) to the fore on chromatic.
Here's another suggestion. Do you own a CX-12?
Not the most popular chromatic for blues, admittedly, but it has a real advantage for tongue block studies. If you remove the slide and the reed block, you can use the shell as a tongue block trainer, and look at your tongue on the mouthpiece in a mirror. That may reveal what's going on when you work on your 5-hole splits, and give you immediate feedback on the tongue adjustments you make. Of course you can't hear the musical results, but you can certainly see how your tongue is interacting with the mouthpiece. You could have another chromatic handy to try out what you see.
I guess the key difference between what you describe and what I've recommended is what you do with the tip of your tongue.
The potential downside for putting the tip of our tongue on or in the hole is that when you want to moave to a neighboring hole, the tongue against the hole divider will
-- create friction that slows you down
-- abrade your tongue
-- disturb your embouchure as the hole divider bumps your tongue out of formation when you slide the harmonica to right or left
-- on chromatic, may subject your tongue tip to slicing when you press the slide button in or let it out.
Here's another reason to tuck the tip of your tongue under the mouthpiece and use the top surface of your tongue to block:
-- The tip of your tongue is probably not anywhere near wide enough to block three of the five holes in your mouth. The top of your tongue can create a much broader surface that remains moist, creates a good seal, and avoid the various problems of putting your tongue on or in the hole.
So, how do you do make this happen with your tongue shape?
First, determine whether you can press the top surface of your tongue flat against a hard, smooth, flat surface.
I'm guessing that you can, but why not test it? Take something that you don't mind touching with your tongue - maybe the front (not the edge) of the hard plastic cover of a CD, for instance.
Open your lips to about the size of opening that you'd use to tongue block, and place the CD cover (or whatever) so that it's pointing straight up, more or less like the front edge of chromatic and just touching your lower and upper lips.
Now stick out your tongue and try to press the top (not the tip) flat against the CD cover.
To do this, you need to point the tip of your tongue down. On a harmonica you'd be able to tuck it under the mouthpiece or lower cover.
pay attention to the sensation on the top surface of your tongue. When you feel you've pressed it flat against the CD cover, remove the cover and look at the pattern of moisture on the surface of the plastic. Chances are that you've made a good seal of tongue to external surface.
Now, try adapting that to the chromatic.
let meknow how it goes.