Thunderbird vs Seydel 1847 Bold Body Low Technical Opinion?
Helllo to harp master KP!
Happy to be here.
I wanted to ask about the two harmonicas from a technical standpoint and just get the vibe of an experienced player and tech like yourself - Which do you prefer and why?
I have seen pictures where it shows the Seydels clearly have post-production weights added to the tips, while the Thunderbirds have their own profiles, meaning they are actually cut like a "regular" tuned harp only with more metal accross the reed.... Which method do you think is better?
Anyway, any info you have on these two models I will appreciate.
Thanks very very much!
Sure thing! I'll be tracking this thread :)
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While I have your attention, may I sneak in another small Q :)
Is it possible to bolt in 12-14mm screws to the manji in order to create a bracing effect against the coverplates? I do that with classic MB 1896 all the time and it works well. Do you think that it will work fine with the Manji?
Andy Just said you used to build all of his instruments - did that include Manjis or was it mostly Hohner?
Yes, bracing the back of the cover plates with the machine screws is a good strategy. For my bench work with Andy Just's harmonicas, the Suzuki Manji makes up about 99.9%
Your Harpsmith, Kinya
Hello Sharmoot500, thank you for prompting me to scrutinize the Hohner Thunderbird Low C and Seydel 1846 Low C harmonicas.
Shown here is the Hohner Thunderbird LC. Look at the #1 draw and you will notice the reed was milled with the weight on the free end.The reed material is Brass (with Zinc)
It was quite an engineering feat for Hohner to lower the pitch on a relatively short reed surface. Note the slight dip in the aerodynamic reed profile between the front of the rear reed pad and the back of the free-end weight... I am a little critical, however, of the weight encroaching too much (makes up more than 50% of the overall length) of this reed space. It prevents shaping an optimum reed profile. When I compare this to a customized Hohner Marine Band low tuned harmonica--with “soldered weights”--on the free end of the reeds (note: solder will enable a drop ≥15 semi-tones), because the aerodynamic reed profile was not disturbed--the harmonica was more playable and projected more volume than the Thunderbird.
Shown here is the Seydel 1846 LC with stainless steel reeds. Note the non-vented cover plates.
As you had pointed out, Seydel has a weight (see second layer) attached to the top of the reed. What Seydel was able to achieve, however, is to have slightly less encroachment onto the body of the reed, thereby, allowing for a better aerodynamic profile. The results were obvious to me in overall playability and volume.
Seydel on top, Hohner below--notice the legacy (found on some antique harmonicas) sloping drop draw cover plate on the lower left side. Joe Filisko and Richard Sleigh popularized this feature on their customized Marine Band harmonicas. This would allow the heavier swinging reeds to avoid contact with the interior of the cover plate, mitigating the annoying click-clack syndrome plaguing the lower tuned harmonica (including Low D, Low Eb, Low E, Low F, Low F# and G).
View of the Hohner Thunderbird left side lower draw vented cover plate. Notice how fat the profile is?
View of the Hohner Thunderbird right side vented draw cover plate. Notice how thinner the profile is? Looks like a typical Marind Band 1896.
Seydel had a different strategy. They stamped a clearance hump into the part of the draw cover plate that had initially made contact with the swinging reed. Problem solved.
Your Harpsmith, Kinya
My friend, you are simply an ace!
What an awesome technical forum, thank you very much for that!
The photos are really high quality as well.
Hah, it does show from the harmonicocus that the Seydel gets more operational hours :)
The design of the Seydel is, I think, their older Low lineup? The new ones are kind of fat all around, with a 7mm comb and extra fat cover plates, both top and bottom. I wonder what prompted that decision to fatten up the Low Tone series that far.
I have a few on the way, but I really hope the fat style won't hurt technique very much. I couldn't find a Seydel like yours anywhere, anyway.
Do you have a thread with pictures showing how to dimple the Marine Band cover in a neat way? if I bang that 1 draw area with a punch and a jeweler hammer I am almost sure it will end up looking horrible... What's the trick for a neat dimple like in that Seydel picture? :)
Ask and you shall receive!
Without all the drama-rama, simply pickup from your local Ace Hardware Store, self adhesive sound dampening material used for cabinet doors, identify the click zone on the draw reed plate cover, and apply the self-adhesive bumper directly to that spot. Voila!
This bumper measure approx. .85" high. Get the flat type. Works like a charm. I've successfully applied this strategy over the past couple of decades.
Your Harpsmith, Kinya
Son of a gun! Neat! I'm getting these right now! Much more elegant than bending that thin metal.
You're literally Rick from Rick and Morty. If you don't know that then give it a watch haha
I also have this 3M Micropore surgical tape that's waterproof. could be even thinner if the goal is to just cut the metal to metal strike.
Say harpsmith, can you tell us more about Andy, what kind of demands did he have, did you replace a lot of reeds for him, did he require tight embossing or more loose etc.
I'm a huge fan, I used to sit for hours on winters and practice all of his material until I could somewhat groove through it. What an expression he has on that vibrato, oh man. I'm wondering what he's doing today....
Saw a youtube video of you two playing and it was so awesome :)
Andy Just and Mark Ford were almost interchangeable in the Ford Brothers Band. The urgency in their playing, the precision and scary TONE is breathtaking (makes the little hairs on your nape stand up).
Andy's harmonica grip is commonly known as the open prayer technique (hallelujah!), some call it the "Your in good hands with Allstate" grip. The advantage of this technique is that it creates an enormous tone chamber when coupled with a bullet mic.
If I had to sort through 1,000 harmonicas to locate one of Andy Just's harmonica, I probably would be able to find it by "touch". Andy's canine teeth (eye-teeth, Vampire teeth) are razor sharp and naturally engraves the blow cover plates with teeth mark--amazing. Some say that is how ferocious Andy attacks the harmonicas (maybe Andy was born in Transylvania?).
Andy only plays the Suzuki Manji (and Olive, a non-vented Manji) harmonica. The tolerances of this stock instrument is best in class, and therefore, I do not "size" his reed plate slots. My task is to tune and properly gap the reed tolerances for his playing style (attack of velocity).
You being a fan of Andy's work knows he draws hard on his 5 reed. So it wouldn't be a surprise to learn most of the reeds I replace on Andy's harmonica are the 5 draw reed.
As for the YouTube videos that you saw of Andy (and I) touring Japan (2012), those performances were in Tokyo. The first was at the largest stocking Harmonica/Melodion/Accordian store located in the Toyko music district-Meidai Dori, which stretches from Ochanomizu Station to the large intersection of Yasukuni Dori. Even Charlie Musselwhite's autographed note was pinned up on the wall. The second event was at the intimate Kazuhiko Obata in Bar Porto in Tokyo, featuring Koei Tenaka (I even met the Prez of Tombo/Lee Oskar there), the third event was at Jirocichi--the hottest bluz club in Tokyo, featuring Chicago Beat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7lcXGSvpg4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIyb0kiHlPA
Andy and I were honored to have performed our final showing in Japan for Mr. Manji Suzuki and employees at the Suzuki Musical Instrument factory (250 employees I believe) located in Hamamatsu Japan. Back in the day, there were six harmonica factories here! The tallest building I saw in downtown was a building shaped like a giant chromatic harmonica-standing on it's end-with the penthouse in the shape of a slider button. Manji and Olive Suzuki started their business with harmonicas about 70 years ago. No relationship to Suzuki Motors, but they started building products during that same time period. Andy and I had the red carpet tour of the factory. One word to discribe what we saw in the processes of building their line of Diatonic and Chromatic Harmonicas, Melodions and Hammond Organs (yes, that Hammond Organ) was that it was STUNNING.
p.s. the 3m Micropore medical tape is a very good solution. You can layer the tape to increase the dampening benefit.
Your Harpsmith, Kinya
Kinya: Hadn't seen the video before. How cool! Assuming you're playing in 2nd position on a Bb harp. If, as Nigel Tufnel claims, Dm is the saddest key, the "Green Onions" changes in Fm are the blues-iest!
Thanx for listening. I'm actually singing in Fm and playing the Low Eb harmonica in 3rd position
Your Harpsmith, Kinya
Wow, I love those videos!
Just is soulful as usual but damn Kinya you're a superstar on that stage! What a spirit and great song!
I will be in Tokyo actually in April so good thing you mentioned those places, I can go check the bars and the store out. Not sure I am high caliber enough for M. Suzuki to give me a tour but I'll practice real hard till then, haha!
Are you also endorsed by Suzuki Kinya?
I always wondered, for a guy like Andy for Suzuki, or H.Levy for Hohner. if the factories just send them free harmonicas when they ask for it, or do they just get a big discount on harmonicas?
p.s the only reason I ever wanted a high G is to play Andy's "She's Sweet" - That solo is ball shivering.
Ah so, be sure to give Japan my regards. Hai Domo Arigato!
Andy Just is endorsed by Suzuki but not me. 90% of what I perform and record with are Hohner harmonicas.
p.s. on my recent recording, I modified a G Hohner Special 20 with the upper octave laid out similiar to the first octave (ref: Seydel/Wilde Tuning). This is a viable alternative to playing a High G diatonic.
Your Harpsmith, Kinya
Hello Sharmoot, thank you for joining us.
Hmm, I am familiar with the Hohner Thunderbird and the technique of adding solder to lower a standard harmonica reed up to 15 semi-tones. Both have clear advantages. But I'm not too familiar with the mechanics of the Seydel. I have a Low C Seydel on my shelf somewhere. Tomorrow I will track it down and look under the hood, then get back to you--OK?
Your Harpsmith, Kinya