Time to retire the Special 20s?
I just ordered a Crossover and a Manji today from Coast to Coast. David and Joe Filisko are pretty up on the Crossover I know. And several others on the site like Slucey and Winslow Yerxa have a lot of good things to say about the Manji. I thought about ordering a Seydel 1847, too, but I can't get used to the idea of stainless steel reeds (even though Hummel is a big proponent).
I thought I'd give the two a good side-by-side. The only thing preventing a true side-by-side though, is the limited availability of the Crossover. I ended up with an "A" Manji and a "Bb" Crossover.
If anyone has any thoughts about the two of these or things I should look for when testing them out, please chime in. I would like to settle on a harp as I go forward, and I figure I'm early enough along in the process to not have any bias (although I've had a full set of Special 20s for a while now and really like playing them).
Do any of you have experience with either the Crossover or the Manji? What do you think?
If you didn't know a harp had stainless steel reeds, would you have any problem with it? You might not even be able to tell.
I don't know that it's all that important to settle on a single model of harmonica. Most players I know play several different ones, though here and there you get a guy who will play only Marine Bands, or only Lee Oskars, or only Golden Melody, etc.
if you still like the Special 20s and they still do everything you want your harps to do, why retire them? At least they give you a good fallback while you try out different harps, and they also give you a point of comparison.
I have 2 Manji can find nothing wrong with them very nice harps, I also have Lee Oskars, MB, Mb Deluxe, Big River, Golden Melody, Bushmans and I always come back to my Spl20's go figure!!
Any decent harp can be made to play better so as far as I'm concerned "play what makes you happy". Like an old pair of jeans it doesn't matter the make or the look it's the way they fit that counts.
Good luck on choosing!!
Winslow wrote:
"If you didn't know a harp had stainless steel reeds, would you have any problem with it? You might not even be able to tell."
Maybe not, but I came up in the world playing trumpet, flugelhorn, and trombone (how's that deep, dark secret for a former metal band guy?). My brewery is made out of stainless. It just seems odd to me for an instrument to be made of it.
Springs are commonly made of steel, and a harmonica reed is really just a type of spring - you press it with air and it springs back. Accordion reeds are made of steel, though not of stainless. "Mild" steel rusts, so you can't use it in a harmonica. But Seydel claims longer reed life from stainless and some players claim that their experience confirms it.
I have to admit, Winslow, that I'm a complete idiot about harp construction, so maybe I'm talking out my butt here. But in other instruments, the use of brass enhances the resonance of the sound, particularly on instruments that have a bell-shaped horn. The softness of the brass encourages this resonance. Stainless, on the other hand, is typically quite hard and not nearly as flexible as brass. As the alloys get harder in horn construction, the higher frequencies after the initial strike decay much faster, making the tone flatter, and the strike itself is of a slightly lower frequency, giving it a less bright hit (unless compensated for in tuning). It seems to me that this would (and probably is) taken into consideration when machining reeds for use in a harp. I wonder what special techniques are used to make the reed flexible enough to be able to vibrate in the same manner as a brass or bronze reed.
Another factor in the brass/bronze vs stainless steel world is that stainless steel instruments do not have the same biostatic abilities to naturally withstand bacteria growth as those made of brass or other copper and silver alloys. I've read and heard that stainless steel instruments get rank pretty quick because of this. Of course, regular cleaning would take care of this, but I think most of us do not clean our harps as often as we should.
But, I'm sure that Seydel is doing something right, as the 1847's seem quite popular. I guess I should add them to my trial as well. I'm putting one on order today. I might as well give it a fair shake, too.
I've been using the 1847 for well over a year now and love them. There's no apparent signs of any of the things that are mentioned and in fact I find them much warmer in tone than the Sp 20, Lee Oskars or Bushman Delta Frosts. (yeah I know who's a gadget freak or who has G.A.S. - gear acquisition syndrome!!!
What I'm finding really interesting (maybe frustrating) is that all those harps I had trouble learning draw and blow bends on now don't seem to give me trouble - hmmmm could they have learned how to respond while they sat in their boxes??? ;-)
I do admit that I have worked on 'tweaking' many of them, using them as practice and they do respond. Nowhere near the confidence to touch my 1847's that seem to be just fine as they are!!!!
My package from Coast to Coast arrived this morning. I was disappointed to find only the Manji in the package. The packing slip says both were shipped, so I'm hoping it was just a screwup on Coast to Coast's side. I left them a voice mail and email asking for info.
As to the Manji, my first impressions were pretty good. Obviously I'm coming at this from the perspective of a total newbie. My only experience on other harps comes from a few years of playing the Special20s - and as an entry-level player even with those.
The Manji looks very well built. The comb is a unique looking and feeling composite. The back is nice and open. The hole openings are slightly recessed as you would expect from a wood-comb harp. The edges are nicely machined and rounded. The cover screws are very nicely positioned in the front of the harp, and there are no sharp nuts on one side. There actually are separate cover screws for both sides of the harp. The screws themselves are threaded into the reed plate. In addition to the four cover plate screws, the reed plates are firmly screwed together across the comb with eight screws.
Putting the thing in my mouth, the first thing I noticed was the ultra smoothness of the cover plates and the roughness of the comb. The cover plate numbers are laser etched, not stamped as my Special 20s are. So the immediate sensation is silky smooth on the lips. I find the harp glides better between my lips and doesn't dry out as quickly, a problem I've been having with my Special 20s. The comb, on the other hand, is totally new to me, especially after playing the plastic combs on the Special 20. It's going to take some getting used to for me to work my tongue with the same dexterity across the rough comb - but that is what I expected, and would be the same with the Crossover and the 1847 I'm sure.
As I'm not an expert yet with a harp-tuned ear, I can only comment somewhat arbitrarily on the sound and playability. The sound is a bit more "springy" on the resonance than the Special 20, especially on the low end. The high end plays easier than my Special 20s. Overall, the sound seems brighter, with higher frequency overtones. The bends are right there, and feel slightly easier to me than on my Special 20s (my Special 20 harps are very well broken in, and the Manji seems to bend easier out of the box even still). The Manji also seems slightly louder with the same air pressure on the high end, but slightly softer on the low end than the Special 20s. The harp is very tight, with no noticeable leaks.
All-in-all, I really like the harp. I wish I had the Crossover to compare it to, but maybe later this week I'll be able to. I could easily see myself getting a full set of these.
"But in other instruments, the use of brass enhances the resonance of the sound, particularly on instruments that have a bell-shaped horn. The softness of the brass encourages this resonance. Stainless, on the other hand, is typically quite hard and not nearly as flexible as brass. As the alloys get harder in horn construction, the higher frequencies after the initial strike decay much faster, making the tone flatter, and the strike itself is of a slightly lower frequency, giving it a less bright hit (unless compensated for in tuning)."
I doubt that much, if any, of this of this applies to harmonica reeds. Unlike the large vibrating surface of a horn bell, reeds are just tiny springs, smaller and thinner than a paper matchstick. Their job is to chop the airflow as they pass through their slots, thereby sending a shockwave through the air column in the player's vocal tract, respiratory system, and hands, which are the resonators and tone shapers.
A stiffer spring can actually be much louder - hence the use of steel in accordions.
I wonder if anyone could tell in a blind listening test any difference between stainless steel reeds and brass reeds in a harmonica.
It's very interesting to read about the properties of stainless steel in harp reeds. Looking at the Seydel test results on their site, they claim a large number of overtones present on stainless reed vibration as compared to brass reed frequencies. This is completely the opposite of what I would have assumed, but as you mention, the lack of a bell likely changes the whole principal, and adding the fact that the players themselves represent a large part of the instrument as far as resonance and presence goes, the whole comparison of brass instruments vs harps goes out the window.
...so much to learn! This is one of the greatest things about this site. Thanks for your input Winslow - on this and many other topics at Bluesharmonica.com.
Interesting that Seydel is claiming brightness.
I was playing a Seydel 1847 in Bb yesterday, and to my ear as a player it sounded less bright than some of my other Bb harps. But it seemed to have plenty of tonal power.
On the other hand, the Seydel Saxony chromatic to me does sound brighter than other chromatics, but not in the way that I'd normally expect. You can hear and compare the Saxony to a Suzuki G-48 (phosphor bronze reeds) and a Bends Tonica (brass reeds) in a review I wrote for harmonicasessions.com (edited by David Barrett) at:
http://harmonicasessions.com/oct09/Yerxa.html
The differences in construction among these harps is also a big contributor to their different sounds, likely bigger than what the reds were made of. Also, that Saxony had a lot more slide/mouthpiece leakage than I believe is normal for that model.
Thanks Winslow, just found your Part 2 of the Chromatic Roundup Review.
Hohner 270 Deluxe & Hohner CX-12 Jazz
http://harmonicasessions.com/dec09/Yerxa.html
I've always been a special 20 fan. But lately I've settled in on Meisterklasse. I love that shape and feel. It's seems to be a sturdy harp that lasts forever. I have kept Special 20s so long that the plastic cracks. I'm not very good at tuning harps and the Sp20's seemed to always sound off just a little. I really need to practice tuning a little. Are there any tips on this website for that? John Popper was here in town with Blues Traveler and he's always sworn by the Special 20. I still have a few, F, D and an A that I carried in my pocket forever. Seems like their always warmed up and ready to go. I met Charlie Musselwhite last year and the Sydel rep was with him playing together. Now I'd really like to try an 1847. Is it somewhat like the Meisterklasse?
Which version of the Meisterklasse do you play?
The original version was made from about 1976 to maybe 1994 and was the same size overall as a Marine Band or Special 20 and used the same reeds mounted on a different reedplate. T
he current version is the Meisterklasse MS (The letters MS will appear on the covers) and is a larger harmonica with a more flattened out cover and larger reeds (same reed design as the Big River, MS Blues Harp and several other models in the MS Series).
The closest thing Seydel has to the Meisterklasse is the Favorite - same size, similar covers, and aluminum comb:
http://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel.sf/en_GB/?ObjectID=3440&Locale=en_GB
However, this has brass reeds (as does the Meisterklasse).
The 1847 Model, with stainless steel reeds, comes in 4 flavors - wood comb the Classic), 2 versions of the plastic comb (Silver and Silver+), and aluminum comb (the Noble). While the Noble has an aluminum comb like the Meisterklasse, its covers are more like those of a Special 20:
http://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel.sf/en_GB/?ObjectID=2830971&Locale...
(The comb color is dark because it's anodized, probably to eliminate chemical reactions and corrosion on the surface of the aluminum.)
I've played the 1847 Classic and Silver. To me they have a slightly luxurious feeling - sort of like driving a large Cadillac sedan instead of a snappy little sports car. But that's just me.
Powersolo wrote:
"I've always been a special 20 fan."
You know, testing the Manji and the Crossover so far, I have to admit that I shouldn't be in such a hurry to abandon my Special 20s. I really like the dark sound better than the Manji and playability better than the Crossover.
I've played just about every type of harp made by Hohner, Lee Oskars and even some good chinese ones (I quite liked a couple of Huang Silvertones that I had), but in my opinion, none of them come close to the Manji. The Manji is loud, bright, full toned, comfortable and easy to play. The chords sound great and I feel an overall resonance between the reeds and the cover plate.I initially had a problem with some of the bends. I was used to Marine bands and I found I was bending too far with the Manji as they bend so easily. I think the Japanese have really improved on the design of the harmonica and made the first real innovations seen for a long time. Just learning to overblow, it was great to be able to overblow my manjis out of the box. I bought a C and a B flat to try them out, but look forward to replacing all my Lee Oskars and Marine bands as they wear out with Manjis.
Of the three harps on my desk right now, the one I grab first for practice is the Manji, followed closely by the Special 20. I keep picking up the Crossover to give it a second and third look, but I keep gravitating back to the other two. Still waiting for my Seydel 1847 so I can give that one a whirl.
I play the later version of the MK Winslow. The one with the MS stamped on it. I remember buying one a long time ago which was my first but it must have still been within the MS period. I also bought a Suzuki Pro several years ago and I was impressed with it. I still have it but don't play as often. If I remember, I think it even has windsavers but looks just like the Miesterklasse. I'll go down stairs and get it, now I'm curious. Back to Special 20's, about 15 years ago, when I lived in NY, all the local harp players didn't like Special 20s as much as Marine Band because they said they like the tone a lot better on a MB. That may be true, but I'm for whatever makes me more comfortable playing and more confident. I don't have any MB's. I couldn't get used to the reedplates slightly raised above the wooden comb. For some reason it wasn't as comfortable as the Special 20. I might give the MB another shot though one day just to see if that's still the case. I was a smoker for 20 years. That may have been part of it too. I've been a non-smoker for 14 years now. Boy can I tell a difference in my playing!
thanks guys
Powersolo
have you tried a bushman delta frost. very playable oob. bends easy and lasts a looong time.
eharp, I haven't tried any of the Bushman harps. I kind of think of the Delta Frost along the same lines as the Special 20. I'll have to give it a whirl some day!
to me, they are way better than sp20's, which i used to play.
but everyone finds their favorite. i dont try other harps because i am afraid if i find a different brand better than the frost's i would have to buy a full set. then i'd be thinking...hmmmm, if x was better than y then z might be even better than x!! then the process would start all over.
i say- if you got a brand you like, there isnt any reason to switch unless you are in a pickle to get a certain key to replace a broken one or you find a great deal on another brand or are given one as a gift.
I like the Seydel I tested so much I'm considering buy a whole set - and at $90.00 a pop, that's a pretty pricey endeavor! My wife's use to it, though. She'll just shake her head and smile, then ask me if I need more room in the attic.
I'm glad she's not nearly as selfish as I am...
good comment eharp! I've been blowin on the same harps for a while and would love to try out a few different brands but when you think about it really, it surely has to be the man (woman) behind the tool!
well oiled on a saturday night, as usual :O)
;o)
jj- you dont need more attic space. i'll be happy to store your castoffs at my place.
If you want a "dark" harp, the open backs of the Manji and Crossover will not be advantageous. The Manji are great harps, but have more spring and tend to ring longer than Hohner's. I haven't bought a Crossover yet. But I play custom Marine Bands, Golden Melody's, and Sp 20's.
Hey guys,
For those of you interested in branching out beyond Special 20s I can give you my $00.02 worth on both as I have both.
I have Bb, A, G, and D in both 1847 and Manji models. Here are some of the points where I I can feel reall differences; this in terms of playability and tone:
The 1847 A is darker than the Manji, and the comb front (holes) are more confortable. I have the sealed wood comb 1847 with the rounded holes. There are now a couple of different comb materials ad profiles available on the 1847 so that sould be considered.
The Manji is brighter, and it *does* have a little more sustain than the 1847. The Manji is louder. Blow 8, 9 and 10 are smoother and bend MUCH EASIER on the Manji. Out of the box, the Manji will produce (for me) a great 6/7 and 7/8 bent head shake wherein I start the shake bend down a half step and smoothly bring it up to the natural pitch of either 6/7, 7/8, and 8/9. The 1847 seems rougher and often chokes out here. I had to gap the 1847 and notch the slot corners a little to get to perform like the Manjis. 10 blow on the Manji will drop a full step with ease; not as easy on the 1847.
The otaves are PERFECT on the Maji. I ordered teh 1847 A and G with Just intonation and they both give me lean octaves but not as clean as the Manjis.
The Manji comb and plate finish on the mouth piece is not as smooth as the 1847 but it's not a huge issue for me.
Both harps are really well made and the covers are both much nicer than the Sp 20 but the Manji is just much prettier than the 1847; the curves are really neaty done and the vents on the sides are nice for the players ears.
The bigest problem I have with the Manjis is the spot welded reeds. I've already repaired my Bb 1847 (3 draw) with a screw and nut and it pays perfectly. I'm not ready to try that with the Manji.
So those are my experiences and observations, folks.
Sam Blancato, Pittsburgh
Hey guys,
For those of you interested in branching out beyond Special 20s I can give you my $00.02 worth on both as I have both.
I have Bb, A, G, and D in both 1847 and Manji models. Here are some of the points where I I can feel reall differences; this in terms of playability and tone:
The 1847 A is darker than the Manji, and the comb front (holes) are more confortable. I have the sealed wood comb 1847 with the rounded holes. There are now a couple of different comb materials ad profiles available on the 1847 so that sould be considered.
The Manji is brighter, and it *does* have a little more sustain than the 1847. The Manji is louder. Blow 8, 9 and 10 are smoother and bend MUCH EASIER on the Manji. Out of the box, the Manji will produce (for me) a great 6/7 and 7/8 bent head shake wherein I start the shake bend down a half step and smoothly bring it up to the natural pitch of either 6/7, 7/8, and 8/9. The 1847 seems rougher and often chokes out here. I had to gap the 1847 and notch the slot corners a little to get to perform like the Manjis. 10 blow on the Manji will drop a full step with ease; not as easy on the 1847.
The otaves are PERFECT on the Maji. I ordered teh 1847 A and G with Just intonation and they both give me lean octaves but not as clean as the Manjis.
The Manji comb and plate finish on the mouth piece is not as smooth as the 1847 but it's not a huge issue for me.
Both harps are really well made and the covers are both much nicer than the Sp 20 but the Manji is just much prettier than the 1847; the curves are really neaty done and the vents on the sides are nice for the players ears.
The bigest problem I have with the Manjis is the spot welded reeds. I've already repaired my Bb 1847 (3 draw) with a screw and nut and it pays perfectly. I'm not ready to try that with the Manji.
So those are my experiences and observations, folks.
Sam Blancato, Pittsburgh
Here's what it all boils down to for me after buying many diferent harps trying to find one that plays just right, the problems not the harp it's always been my ability. I had a group lesson with Mark Hummel once he open what looked like a brief case full of loose harps not custom not anything special mostly at the time they where Marine band stock harps, DW Gill (great unknown blues man) plays nothing but OOB Marine band, Adam Gussow OOB Marine Band. Now I own a bunch of MB harps and they are brutal OOB and there are good arguments why other makes are better just remember the harp doesn't make the player.
I've been playing for about a year now, exclusively with special 20's. I'm curious to try other models but can't afford to buy just to try. Forgive me for being slow here but is there a way to test new harps in this bisiness without having to buy?
Generally, nobody wants to play a harp that somebody else has played. So dealers aren't about to lose money on putting out a bnuch of test harps in different models and keys, and will actually claim that it's against the law (though nobody can, er, quote the exact statute).
That said, at the SPAH convention, Suzuki, Seydel, and Hohner all show up and will generally let you try out the harps they have on display.
Interesting, I have a full set of Lee Oskar's and have not really tied anything else.