Tongue-Blocking Hurts
Hey people,
I'm new here and just getting started on the Tongue Blocking bandwagon. I'm liking it so far but have one major problem. The two harps I have, Seydel Blues Session Steel and Suzuki Olive, snag my tongue. The Seydel at the left corner where the cover meets the comb (there's a small gap and my tongue gets caught when I tongue-swtich at hole 1) and the Olive at random places where the cover meets the comb. It's a nerve-recking experience and makes me nervous to practice tongue blocking freely. I just ordered a Suzuki Manji and hoping that harmonica doesn't have this problem. Anyone else experience this?
I have been being a little more cautious and light since it was snagging. So far so good - maybe I was just swaying my tongue too much - it was only my third day TBing). I'm going to keep trying this week and see if the situation is improving. BTW, see my other post (on your section of the forum) of using the underside of my tongue for everything. So far I haven't had problems going this route!
Well, it happened a couple times again. I've located the issue when I tounge-switch from hole 2 to 1 and back on my Seydel.This is a terrible harp design, I'd never buy it again. My Olive had a problem as well but it's a bit old (and banged up) so I'm giving a new Manji a chance when it comes in (crossing my fingers).
You may hve similar problems with other covers. Pictured left to right are an EastTop Blues Player, Hohner Marine Band Deluxe, and Suzuki Manji. Note the little opening at the corner where the front edge meets the side tab. Some players find that those openings snag moustache hairs. They might give you the same tongue trouble as the Seydel. (I've tongue blocked on Seydel models with this cover and not had a problem.)
One question I'd ask, though, is why you'd do tongue switching between Holes 1 and 2. Wny not just move the harp and leave your embouchure in place?
Good question. Because I don't know any better. Not switching tongues is possible but it seems kind of akward because my mouth is way over at the corner. Maybe with practice I could get clean notes that way but it makes me wonder why I don't just tounge switch at hole 3. How do you play hole 1? I thought most people tounge switch to play 1.
I've been having less issues with the sharp corner as I get better but tounge switching feels totally akward and clumbsy. Seydels are pretty good actually, except for that cover. I'm surprised none of those high end models have smooth corners. I'll figure out my way around that.
The Manji you have there looks pretty bad - the cover isn't even in the reed-plate slot.
Another benefit of tounge switching for hole 1 seems to be that I can tounge slap on the other side while I play note 1. The tongue feels kind of useless if it's off the harp and doing nothing.
I play Hole 1 three different ways, depending on circumstance.
Sometimes I play it out of the right corner. This lets me move to other neighboring holes and play it in a context where I may have no reason to play out of the left side. I can play extended passages out of the left side if I want to, but most tongue effects depend on having chord notes lower than the melody note, so the melody note needs to be in the right side.
Also, having the tongue and lips partially off the harp is no big deal. The lips close onto the tongue to seal off the airflow; you just have to get used to them not resting on the harp.
Here's an example of playing out of the right corner
Sometimes I play it out of the left side. I do this when I want to leap to a faraway note in the other corner, or add a split involving a higher note played out of the right corner, or play tongue-lift effects where the harmony notes are higher than the melody.
Here's an example of playing out of the left corner.
Sometimes I pucker. I do this when I want to play an overblow in Hole 1, or play rapid repeated articulations that can only be done with the tip of the tongue on the roof of the mouth (didididid, di-dl-di-dl, etc.).
Here's an example of playing with a pucker.
To be fair, that Manji has been disassembled by me more than once and not aligning the front of the cover in its slot is down to me, not the manufacturer..
That makes sense, in terms of why people don't switch at say, hole 3. The lower notes in tandem with even hole 2 sounds nice. I am able to do all 3 but not so eloquently yet. At the moment, I'm forcing myself to use tongue switch on hole 1 because it's the hardest and most akward of the three options for me, and I'd like to get smoother at it.
The hardest thing about switching to tongue-block for me is the diminished quality of my bends. I spend a lot of time getting bends to sound sweet (sweet for a beginner I mean) because it's one of my favorite sound qualities of the harp. Within a few days I got the tongue-block bends on holes 1-8 down, with hole 9 barely coming in, but only hole 4 sounds as good as my pucker bend (some of the time). My hope is that the quality and depth of the bend can eventually get as good as I can get with the Pucker Style.
Other than that, I am loving tongue-block more that the pucker style. It feels so natural and comfortable (aside from holes 1 & 2).
Thanks for the excellent tidbits!
Just added some audio files to the reply above.
They all sound great to me. I guess the point is that they all have their purpose for different situations.
After some more practice, I'm having a much more flowful experience just keeping the tongue always blocking the left side from hole 1 - 10. I'm just going to keep it simple for now and forget about tongue switching till a later date. It's not as akward anymore to play hole 1 this way.
I finally did end up getting a Manji, and I had to spend the money to have it customized for the Powerbender tuning. I have to say I'm not so impressed with Suzuki. Hole 1 is narrower than the other holes, and the coverplate has the same curve issue as shown in your picture - it doesn't line up with the ridge.
Interestingly enough, I started liking my Seydel more. My tongue doesn't seem to get caught in it anymore and I feel like I'm getting good tone out of that thing. I can't spend any more money on harps at this point, but I think when my cheap non-brand A goes, I might just go get the Seydel 1847 tuned to Powerbender. I don't even have to go spend a lot of money on a customizer that way.
Anyone have positive experiece with the 1847s? My Session Steel sounds pretty good, but it feels a bit muted and perhaps that has to do with the covers. I was hoping the suzuki would be the one, but it's not as great as I thought it would be.
I love my 1847. Pretty sure my wife got my hints and hopefully there will be a few under the Christmas tree. I started with the Special 20 but the cover plate design that Winslow showed would irritate my lips. I switched to the Crossover because the corner is rounded so no more issues. You might want to try a Crossover they are great. both the Seydel and the Crossover have rounded (closed) corners.
I think (check into this first) that 1847 cover plates will fit the Session Steal
For my Special 20's I could not find any info on how to round off those ends so I improvised. I used j-weld to fill in the opening then covered that with a glob of liquid glass to make it roundish. I can now play them without any irritation. Maybe Winslow knows a better way?
i would post some pictures of each but I don't know how. Good luck!
Mark
Which 1847 do you have and do you like it better than the crossover? The classic, silver or noble. More decisions...
A couple of reasons I'd opt for 1847 over Crossovers:
1. Durability. I want it to last as long as possible and from online reviews, I heard the seydels reeds last much longer than crossovers.
2. I use an alternate tuning (powerbender) and Seydel makes all the 1847 harps available in my alternate tuning where as I'd have to get hohner's customized (which may also weaken the reeds. Seydel puts the right reed in the right place for alternate tunings rather than weaken the reeds by starting in richter and retuning them).
Soundwise, from online reviews - 1847 and crossovers both seem good according to what people are saying.
Anyway, I've got a long way to learning the harp and I'll just stick with what I have (a customized manji in G, a seydel session steel in G, and a non-brand powerbender in A).
I have the 1847 classic in the key of A. "Do you like it better than the Crossover?" That's a tough question but yes, by a little bit and only for design reasons. The harp is a little larger and I personally like that. I dig the design of the Comb. The hole spacing works for me.
there is no going wrong with either of these harps. I believe it comes down to personal taste. They are both great!
Regards,
Mark
Hi, a useful thread, thanks.
Did I blunder when I bought a Marine Band 1896? It feels like it.
I am just now working on the first tongue-blocking exercises. Simple blocking to get single notes is fine. It is moving - eg moving up the scale, or doing a shake - that causes the problem. As the tongue slides across the face of the comb, both the texture of the pear wood and the sharp hole edges cause abrasion to the tongue. It is ok on my Special 20, with the ABS comb, but on the Marine Band 1896, it hurts!
Is it supposed to hurt? Is this a rite of passage that the old guys had to endure and which I must also? Will it actually get better as the tongue toughens, or something? I try a lighter touch, but as yet, I cannot see how the tongue would survive a fast and furious solo.
It is surprising to me that the texture of the pear wood is so apparent, but the wood is barely sealed, if at all, by the thinnest coat of whatever. I can sure see why these combs are prone to swelling. You can just about feel the moisture being sucked off the tongue by the wood.
So, am I dong it wrong, or is the Marine Band 1896 a dinosaur that should have been retired a long time ago? Yes, established players may scoff, but should beginning harp players simply by-pass the 1896 in favour of newer developments or other brands?
Thanks.
The tine edges on the basic Marine Band are sharper than on the Deluxe or Crossover models, but you can fix this easily. You can sand or file the tine edges, or you can just scrape a hard edge against them, something like the blunt side of a table knife.
That said, I play Marine Bands stock with no alteration and feel no discomfort. Not because my tongue is callused (tho' maybe it is is, coudn't say for sure) but because I don't press my tongue hard against the holes.
Try touching your tongue lightly as possible to the holes. Don't poke it into the holes, let it glide on top of them.
You can also tuck the tip of your tongue unde the hole and glide it along the lower cover, and use the broad, moist surface of your tongue to do the blocking.
As I've gotten better at tongue-blocking, i find I don't have the same "tongue" problems I used to have with the Seydel Blues Session. I tried playing from the otherside of my tongue for a bit so I can play both ways and immeditely I had issues with my tongue snagging between the cover-plates and comb again. So basically, this becomes less of a problem as you get better - but I still hope the built quality of harmonicas improve overtime. I'm not really impressed with the fine tolerance of even high end harmonicas - but I guess I'm overly spoiled by products from Apple where everything is so precisesly designed! I suppose I got into harmonicas and imagined the big 3 were multibillion dollar companies. :D I know.. silly :)
FYI - I realized that the gaps on the seydel session cover plates are intentional so the covers can go in the grooves of 1847 reed plates. If these gaps weren't there, these covers would not be interchangable with the 1847.
Hi, thank you very much for your thoughts, Yerxa.
The back of a knife on the tine edges sounds like a good idea, thanks! Relieved to hear this is not a sacriligious ruination of the instrument.
My other issue is the porous front surface of the tines. I have seen MB 1896 is videos and can definitely see a shiny coating on the pearwood. Mine is just about completely bare, out of the box. Of course, the knife trick on the sharp edges would ruin the seal anyway, so I may have to take drastic measures.
I am thinking of dismantling then spraying the comb a fine layer of some kind of polymer sealant. Alternatively, I am thinkng of simply smearing a waxy lip balm onto it.
Of course, I am certain that a lighter touch will help. Thanks for the tips on tongue use and placement. I will give this a go.
Cheers
Hohner has been changing its wood comb finishes and the Marine Band finish may have changed. It shouldn't be bare wood, though.If you feel the need to refinish, you could apply drops of shellac to just the tine ends, letting the droplets pool to cover the surface. I've done this in the past. You can also disassemble the harp and soak the comb in melted beeswax; some customizers have done this. Or you could hang it up by a thread and spray it with acrylic; I've done that, too, sometimes after flat sanding, doing a coat, sanding it, and re-spraying.
However, reassembling a nailed-together reed block (comb and reedplates) can easily introduce leaks. If you have a drill press and can acquire screws in the appropriate sizes, you can drill it out for screws. (Or you could just buy a Crossover.)
Thanks, excellent suggestions re sealant. I wondered about beeswax, but thought it may be too grippy, like surfboard wax.
Your point about just buying a Crossover is well made. I have strongly suggested elsewhere that there is a problem even continuing to make the MB 1896 available at all! As I say in another thread, at least beginners should be strongly warned to stay away from it, even if experts still prefer it for their own reasons. I do feel I have wasted my money, money better spent on a Deluxe or Crossover, or even another Special 20.
(I do feel, however, as a beginner, I should try a variety of decent quality instruments before forming any preferences, so I was not going to get another S20 just yet in any case). AnywY, I have learnt from the experience!
Thanks for your thoughtful comments Yerxa.
Yes, thanks too for your helpful remarks re drilling through the nail holes. This MB 1896 really was not designed for user friendliness!
Thanks Winslow, apologies for mixing up your name. Thanks for your very helpful comments.
Are you pressing your tongue too hard against the harmonica?
I tongue block about 90 percent of the time, and have never had a tongue snag. I have had the experience of pressing my tongue into the holes and having the tongue travel with the harp instead of the harp gliding under the tongue (and on chromatic, of poking my tongue so far into the hole that I nicked it when I pressed the slide in - ouch!).
So my main suggestion would be to see how little tongue pressure you can use while still achieving the sound you want with your tongue.
Anothe thing to explore is what part of the tongue you use to block the holes. You can use the front edge (the tip), the top surface (great coverage for wider blocks and will not poke into the holes), and the underside, which for me works best for a 1-hole block in a split. I don't recommend pointing the tongue right or left or using the side edge of the tongue, as this hinders actions like corner switching and on-off and side-to-side movements.