Too Much Thump
David,
Sometimes when playing through big amps I hear too much 'thump' when I slap. It's a big bassy 'thuw-whump' sound. A little of it is cool but too much is distracting and muddy. If I'm not being clear I'lll explain further but hopefully you know what I mean.
Is this a function of slapping too hard, having the bass turned up too far on the amp, cupping too tight? I usually cup with the 'two thumbs up' method but maybe I could switch in those situations.
Thanks,
Steve
Thanks David,
It is a boutique harp amp, with the bass turned up. I think it might be "too much of a good thing". When I play double stops, I hear the difference tones a bit more than I would like in this situation as well. Cool, but can sound muddy. It's really not that bad, just not exactly eq I want. So I think I'll try loosening my cup. Adjusting the eq via cupping is something I want to work on anyway.
I can make it happen at home if I crank the bass. I'm going to try practicing with the eq deliberately a a little bit wrong (too much bass, or too much treble) and practice adjusting with my cup.
Steve
Sounds like you have it... exactly what I was imagining. When you play more than one note the amp will respond exponentially, so relax your cup each time you play double stops, etc. You shouldn't have to adjust for slaps though, so relax the cup a bit and turn down the bass. That's a good thing... it means your technique is TOO good! :-)
I found another interesting low end rumble last night.
I brought my new big amp (Sonny Jr. Super Cruncher) to sit in with a band, and had to set up on the bar's hardwood floor right in front of the stage. Sometimes when I played double stops there was a low end note or rumble emanating from the stage. The guitar player started looking down at the stage floor trying to figure out where the sound was coming from. And then it would stop. I realized it coincided with my double stops! It was the weirdest thing. I didn't hear it from my amp, but I distinctly heard it coming from somewhere on the stage, as did the other musicians. I think the hardwood bar floor was amplifying my bass tones, and the stage supports transmuted the vibrations to the stage floor, and it resonated pretty bad. So I opened my cup on double stops. I have an amp stand at home; next time I'll bring that. The guitar player really liked the sound of the amp though and was curious about it.
In spite of the seismic rumbles the gig went well - started playing at 9:30 with the intention of playing a few songs, and they didn't let me off stage until the end of the night at 1:30. And I got a gig out of the deal, tomorrow night. I've been working on the accompaniment lessons and just thinking about that a lot. The musicians and singers all complimented me on not overplaying, listening, answering the vocals without stepping on them, etc. They all said that doesn't always happen with harp players! Sad but true I guess.
I do need to continue working on my lick vocabulary though. I was starting to get bored with my own solos by the end of the night. I also need to remind myself to switch up positions. I'm still sussing out the amp thing. Playing a big amp on stage with a band is different from playing a small amp at home with a jam track and headphones.
Steve
Wow, it sounds like things are going really well... very exciting. You're correct, the stage is amplifying your bass. Gary Smith says that he always tries the amp on the stage first to hear of the stage is going to help his bass... this is generally a good thing. I prefer to get the amp always off the stage, just for the purpose of getting the amp higher off the stage to ear level... we all have our way of doing things.
What you're hearing is a Difference Tone. When you play two notes on the harmonica, a third is produced. For example, when playing 3 and 4 draw at the same time, a note two octaves lower than your 2 draw is produced. This is a pretty cool thing in nature, of which is also important to amp builders. Amp builders for harp try to accentuate this, and whenever I try an amp I always play the 3/4 combo first, to test how big the bass is (how well the amp handles that lower frequency of the difference tone). You answer, get the amp off the stage, like you said. I like milk crates... one will do the job.
Keep up the great work! Share YouTube footage when you can.
Yeah you're right, it was a difference tone. I find I like it when I can hear the difference tone a little bit on an amp but not too much - otherwise it gets too muddy for my taste. That was the first time I used my Sonny Jr., and by the end of the night I had the bass turned down to 3, the treble on 6 or 7, and some of the bright channel mixed in. Too many knobs!
Update: Last night at the gig I switched from the 'two thumbs up' method of holding the harp, to putting my left thumb under the harp, and putting my right index finger in front of the harp to leave the right side of the harp exposed. I play Marine Bands. I used that as my default position, and moved my right index finger over to cover the end of the harp when I wanted it darker. This worked well. I could vary the EQ from light to dark as needed. No more 'thump'.
In an effort to get a tight seal, I had worked out a way of playing with 2 thumbs up, fully covering the harp, and using my left thumb and right index fingers to hold the harp. But when put my right index finger in front of the harp to open up the right end, I couldn't comfortably hold the harp. So I would naturally fall back to the more sealed position.
So I switched back to the way I started, which I think is how most guys play most of the time. I'm glad I learned the '2 thumbs up' approach because it does get a cool, muted sound that's appropriate for some things, but I'm going to use the normal way of holding the harp by default from now on. It's both easier and sounds better.
Opening up helped me project more on solos to - up to a point. By the end of the night we had guest musicians on stage (3 guitar players!), it got pretty loud, and I could barely hear myself. I didn't turn up my amp as a guitar player was blocking access to it, but I don't think my amp could have gotten too much louder anyway. My amp (Sonny Jr. super cruncher) does have a speaker driven line out - maybe I should plug that into the PA? Or would you recommend mic'ing it? I had thought that the super cruncher would be all the firepower I would ever need, but apparently not. I could get an even bigger amp but I'm thinking there will always be situations where you need to put some sound through the PA. We're not talking a fancy or powerful PA here though. Any general thoughts on this?
OK time to get ready for my Saturday afternoon gig. I would have had 3 gigs this weekend but I begged out of the Saturday night gig because I running a marathon early in the morning on Sunday!
I'm having a lot of fun with the harp - it wouldn't have happened without bluesharmonica.com. Thanks!
Steve
Great. Using your line out is a good idea, though you lose the sound of your cabinet and speaker, so when a mic and stand are available it's preferred to use a mic. Mic'ing your amp is always better than not mic'ing it. The house speakers are there to spread the send evenly throughout the room. If your amp is loud enough then they won't put much of you in the house, but if it's not, this is the way to always make sure you're heard.
P.S., as a player, as you're making music, always assume they can hear you well in the house...
Thanks again David. When micing the amp, start with say a 57 an inch of the edge of the speaker, an inch away from the grill, and a flat eq in the PA?
Steve
Sounds like a good place to start.
I'm late in chiming in - but hopefully this information will be useful. I own a Sonny Jr Super Cruncher and an Avenger. Unlike MANY tweed, baseman-looking amps, these amps need the bass turned WAY down. With the bass too far up, the difference between single notes and chords while cupped is huge. Those bassy difference tones just leap out of the amp. You'll find the Bass control has a big effect on this. My bass is usually set at 2 and never higher than 3! The amp STILL has planty of bottom end. But I've also learned, as David suggested, to adjust my cup. On a single wailing note I love to get a really tight cup (and "wah") and the amp responds beautifully. But if I'm playing chorded and/or a lot of slapping - I've learned to loosen my cup a little. Doesn't take much.
Finally - and I know this isn't pleasant news - I have also found that the Cruncher is not loud enough to be easily heard on stage at loud jams. Lining it out or mic'ing it to the house helps out front, but won't help you hear it - unless the sound guy adds some of that signal to the monitors. You have to be VERY careful doing this because that can become its own feedback nightmare. My Avenger, on the other hand, CAN be heard in almost any setting I've encountered.
Assuming that your technique is good, it would be the amp being overly-reactive in the way we normally like, but some amps set up for harp can go "too" far. This is one of the challenges... we want the amp to have a big, responsive bottom, and to react to our bassy-ness (via cupping and such), but not so far that it moves out of the range we think of as being musical.
Ways to help this would be to relax your cup... and/or... turn the bass and mid down a bit.
Yes, you could be slapping too hard as well, but I've heard you play and have not noticed that in your submissions... but then again you weren't playing a big amp. Always use a light touch on the face of the harmonica.
If you get a chance to video record yourself sometime on the big amp, post it on youtube and send me the link and I'll listen.